Morgan: "that we must attempt it nonetheless, for the long-term health of our Constitution." Zaius:
How is a failed attempt to impeach the president going to help the "long-term health of our Constitution" exactly? Without further definition of this point, it merely sounds like a slogan. In my opinion, a failed impeachment will only strengthen the president and the GOP, not weaken him. Morgan: "What could be more of an impeachable offense than lying our country into war? If that is not an impeachable offense, then what is?" Zaius:
OK, so your argument is that politicians that lie should be impeached. (that is kind of hard say with a straight face!) First you have to prove that they have lied, and second you have to a two-thirds majority in the senate to impeach. this statement does little to fulfill those points.Morgan: "If the President (and if Bush) gets away with this without a mark, a precedent is set that may never be undone. Precedent is an onerous burden to overcome, even if accidental. Especially if accidental."Zaius:
All the more reason to be sure that the issue is resolved correctly in the first place. Measure twice, cut once.Morgan: "Even if something is not codified into law originally, precedent can make it so." Zaius:
That statement and the example provided are kind of broad. I don't think I want to go there without some clarification. Morgan: "We as a democracy cannot afford to let this stand without challenge." Zaius:
The president is being challenged every day. Your argument is either it is done your way (Impeachment right now despite the consequences!) or nothing is being done at all.
(It will "stand without challenge.") I don't see that as a valid. You present the subject as an either/or statement, when in fact it is more complicated than that.
Even within that framework, you have not defined your terms. I would say that it is a bad idea to lead an impeachment hearing right now knowing that it will fail, and weaken the Democrats and strengthen the Republicans. I would say that it is a better idea to wait and see if we can sway 16 or so senators later. Their resolve already appears to be eroding.Morgan: "We seem to be approaching this as if we should only take action if we are assured of a successful outcome. I believe we should take action regardless of whether we are guaranteed success, simply because it's right." Zaius:
Once again, you argument is either/or. If you look at the graph that DCup has provided
, it is clear that any attempt right now would be suicide. Your argument must then contain an explanation as to why suicide is a good idea. You cannot really argue that it has even a slim chance of winning at this time.
Let me say again, I argue that a failed impeachment will only strengthen the president and the GOP, not weaken them.
And what will you use as evidence? Any trial is supposed to start with evidence, you are not supposed to find it along the way. That would
be against the Constitution.
People don't win or lose trials because they are right or wrong. It's about the law. And in this case, it's about who is voting how in the senate.Morgan: "Otherwise we are giving our tacit approval and support to what these criminals are doing to us and the rest of the world. We would be establishing a precedent that may be impossible to overcome." Zaius:
You are stating that unless we do it your way and impeach the president immediately, we are giving tacit approval of his actions. This is again an either/or statement. The president is being challenged by the Democratic congress on a daily basis. To say that Harry Reid or Nancy Pelosi are in any way, shape or form giving tacit approval of the president is false in my opinion. It is insulting to degree. Can you provide evidence of your assertion? Saying it does not make it so.
Also, a failed impeachment attempt would indeed establish a precedent, but the wrong one. It would strengthen the Republicans. Remember that the Republicans failed to impeach Clinton in the Senate after a huge brouhaha and many months of wasted effort, and they had a larger majority than the Democrats do now. In the end, they did not get what they wanted, and looked like major idiots for their efforts. Clinton ended up being a figure of sympathy, and had a very positive public approval ratings when he left office. Morgan: "Impeachment is all that's left." Zaius:
No, I don't think it is the only option. I do think it is the best option. But I do say that it is only an option if Harry Reid or Nancy Pelosi can pull it off, if they can gain enough support in the senate. I think Pelosi could pass it in the house, but the odds are lot worse for Reid at this time.